PayPal Chargeback with a twist

jsevier14 · Noob

PayPal Chargeback with a twist

IceBlueEyes · Top Poster

Hey js, There are some top notch posters here that can help you.

They'll be along soon. I just come here to flirt.

and offer my sympathy, and pour

. Sorry for your trouble.

xppman · Top Poster

Flurt. LOL

unfrozen_caveman_lawyer · Senior Member

I invited JS over to our little board in hopes someone could help them out.

The situation is beyond my experience. I think somehow PP should be liable. They sent a check for petes sake.

JS admits he was wrong for refunding by check but you guys know how PP is.

-- Edited by unfrozen_caveman_lawyer at 22:10, 2006-07-27

xppman · Top Poster

OP I was reading your situation on the PP company shill boards.

Your probably not only right in principal but in law.

They sent you an e mail saying the payment was yours.
If I understand you right.

Then you then requested PP send you a paper check?

PP did. Therefore they made you hole.

At that point you thought it would be right to refund the buyer.

So far so good and you do just that.

Later PP comes back and say oh no we made a mistake the payment we sent you
was from "unauthorized funds".

If I'm following you right so far please respond.

IceBlueEyes · Top Poster

Hi rebel.

xppman · Top Poster

Hi there.

jsevier14 · Noob

xppman: You are 100% correct... Although I expect it would take forever to find it, I have to believe there is some law that addresses this situation exactly. They put money in my account, I claimed it, they processed the claim, then debited my account after they got notice they wrongfully processed the original charge. The balance was $0 when they processed the chargeback. I don't understand how they can legally pass this on to me since they processed the original payment and my claim on the funds by paper check. I'm currently in what their CSA called a "grace period" of 100 days where they say they won't do anything with the account, like charge my credit card, but as it stands right now they say I owe them...

IceBlueEyes: Thank you... :)

-- Edited by jsevier14 at 23:15, 2006-07-27

anonymous · Top Poster

I will throw in my 2 cents. First, the only 3 things I am sure of are that I believe you, I am sorry this happened to you and you are not alone.

In addition to what Xppman stated, have you noticed that Ukraine is not on the accepted countries lists anywhere? Not here, or here.

I would try filing complaints to silicon valley bbb, California State AG office, and Nebraska state AG. Be absolutely sure to document everything, and tell them it was an international transaction(?) in that you shipped to where you did.

Look in the sticky thread at the forum top, you may find something else to help you. File and complain, and keep filing and complaing until you have worked off some undue stress.

Do not rule out writing your state rep and the media.

You may also try to contact PP via telephone, try and speak to an escalations manager or for a courtesy refund.

Post your problem over at the sucks site too.

If you are like most of us, you will get no resolution, sorry, but Good Luck to you.

Maybe someone else can chime in.

IceBlueEyes · Top Poster

jsevier14 wrote:

xppman: You are 100% correct...

I would be disappointed in anything less.

xppman · Top Poster

From what I gather, jsevier14 is NOT out anything (real money) at this point.
Nor is the person who's card was presumed to be used to make the original payment.

It is PayPal who processed the original payment initiated by jsevier14's buyer
who is out the funds and seeing as PP is the acting "Agent"
and merchant of record that facilitated the original payment, it IS their ultimate responsibility to VERIFY the authenticity of funds they are collecting
on the behalf of an account holder.

Looks possible that the buyer (In the Ukraine) did in fact gain access
to the original account holder's credit card information in order to perpetrate a scam
to receive funds (in the form of a refund by other means) or merchandise
to complete his/her scam.

Not knowing the actual time frame of the event makes it difficult to determine,
but assuming that:
a) jsevier14 was able to receive a paper check from PP (and apparently that check cleared his bank) than we are talking what 10-15-20
days after the fact or more that jsevier14 was notified by PP about the "unauthorized" original payment?

So I gather jsevier14 just has a "negative balance" at this point in his/her PP account
for the amount in question and while contacting all the agencies
mentioned above is a good idea.
At this point PP has taken no further action against jsevier14 other than to place
jsevier14's account in the negative balance and send informal demands /requests
that he pay the money ("unauthorized" original payment) back to PP.

jsevier14 could probably walk away from this entire incident with-out any further
action on his/her part however (and with-out going into detail) if PP has
enough evidence to conclude that jsevier14 may be part of the scam,
then the possibility exists that further action will be taken by PP against jsevier14.

Now jsevier14 I'm not saying you are part of this scam so I believe you.
Also like I've seen you state on the PP shill boards:
I agree that PP is quit aware of the two party scam.
I would only say and again
with-out going into detail, PP may look to
one party for recovery.

Just remember this IMPORTANT aspect or any recovery they attempt.
PP must PROVE the claims they make if they where to TRY to do a
legal recovery from you or the Ukrainian scammer.

So at this point the only true victim who is out money
seems to be PP... the company that facilitated
to original payment in the first place.

PayPal may have no way or no desire to
go after the scammers, so instead they choose the what
they feel is the least path of resistance.

TO GO AFTER THE INNOCENT THIRD PARTY VICTIMS.

Attempting into somehow intimidating the one party of the incident
TO PAY UP who has the least information and true
details of what really went wrong.

My advise would be to sit back and let PP try to come after you for those funds.

I sincerely doubt from what you have stated they have a case to
effect any real and legal recourse of recovery
against you at this time.

Like the PP shill's say to all the victims who come through their slanted boards:

And this is DIRECTED AT PP themselves.

"You got ripped off PP.
Had you followed your MA's UA to the letter and made wise decisions,
you would NOT be in this mess...
and even if so, you should pad your fees in order to cover you
from these incidents...
After all PP... its all part of doing business on the net." LOL

jsevier14 if you have more details you would like to share but are
uncomfortable putting them in the open you could IM me.
The amount in question and the time line can help determine
what next, if anything will occur
and what type of defense would be needed to fight
off this situation from PP
if they did decide to escalate.

Sorry this happened to you.

-- Edited by xppman at 07:18, 2006-07-28

jsevier14 · Noob

xppman:

From what I gather, jsevier14 is NOT out anything (real money) at this point.
Nor is the person who's card was presumed to be used to make the original payment. It is PayPal who processed the original payment initiated by jsevier14's buyer
who is out the funds and seeing as PP is the acting "Agent"
and merchant of record that facilitated the original payment, it IS their ultimate responsibility to VERIFY the authenticity of funds they are collecting
on the behalf of an account holder.

You're again 100% correct on all counts. I am not out any real money. I just got my first nag-mail from PP this morning. "Please bring your negative balance to $0..." etc... Right now PayPal is pursuing the path of least resistance as you describe.

Not knowing the actual time frame of the event makes it difficult to determine,
but assuming that:
a) jsevier14 was able to receive a paper check from PP (and apparently that check cleared his bank) than we are talking what 10-15-20
days after the fact or more that jsevier14 was notified by PP about the "unauthorized" original payment? So I gather jsevier14 just has a "negative balance" at this point in his/her PP account
for the amount in question and while contacting all the agencies
mentioned above is a good idea.
At this point PP has taken no further action against jsevier14 other than to place
jsevier14's account in the negative balance and send informal demands /requests
that he pay the money ("unauthorized" original payment) back to PP.

I did receive a paper check from PP, and it has cleared the bank, it was indeed about 20 days after the fact that I was notified of the unauthorized original payment. One of my original quesitons to PP was "when does the money in my account really become mine", to which they replied "we can process chargebacks any time we want to." Nice huh? They can basically take money from you whenever they want. That is just wrong.

jsevier14 could probably walk away from this entire incident with-out any further
action on his/her part however (and with-out going into detail) if PP has
enough evidence to conclude that jsevier14 may be part of the scam,
then the possibility exists that further action will be taken by PP against jsevier14.

My wife's initial response to this was "don't pay it, let them come after you, file a dispute with the proper agencies...". It sounds ike there's a consensus...

There can be no evidence that I was part of the scam. All I wanted to do was to get this guy out of my hair as quickly as possible and I took action to do so. I never even considered they may think I could be a part of this mess... I appreciate you clarifying you believe me. There is no doubt PP is aware of how this all works. They know what they're doing. They are definitely pursuing the path of least resistance, which makes even more pathetic now that I understand better what's going on.

So at this point the only true victim who is out money
seems to be PP... the company that facilitated
to original payment in the first place.

PayPal may have no way or no desire to
go after the scammers, so instead they choose the what
they feel is the least path of resistance.

TO GO AFTER THE INNOCENT THIRD PARTY VICTIMS.

Attempting into somehow intimidating the one party of the incident
TO PAY UP who has the least information and true
details of what really went wrong.Attempting into somehow intimidating the one party of the incident
TO PAY UP who has the least information and true
details of what really went wrong.

They've been very cryptic and evasive when I've pressed them for actual details of what happened, so you probably are correct, they're going after the weakest player with the least information. One call, the CSA tells me buyer initiated the chargeback. Another call, the bank said the credit card was stolen. Any query for more specific information has been met with "I'm sorry, that's confidential."

PayPal knows they'll never nail this scammer in the Ukraine. They also know they'll lose half their business if they don't accept credit card payments that are questionable. So, really their only recourse is to do what they're doing, which is at least unethical but easily illegal.

My advise would be to sit back and let PP try to come after you for those funds.

I sincerely doubt from what you have stated they have a case to
effect any real and legal recourse of recovery
against you at this time.

Like the PP shill's say to all the victims who come through their slanted boards:

And this is DIRECTED AT PP themselves.

"You got ripped off PP.
Had you followed your MA's UA to the letter and made wise decisions,
you would NOT be in this mess...
and even if so, you should pad your fees in order to cover you
from these incidents...
After all PP... its all part of doing business on the net." LOL

Your advice makes sense. Also, your description of what was said over on ebay is exactly word for word what happened... like its a script or something...

jsevier14 if you have more details you would like to share but are
uncomfortable putting them in the open you could IM me.
The amount in question and the time line can help determine
what next, if anything will occur
and what type of defense would be needed to fight
off this situation from PP
if they did decide to escalate.

The only missing element from my story is the amount, which is $800. You have the timeline down pat just by deduction. The original transaction took place June 6, I had his money back in his hands by June 21, then on July 12 PayPal hit me with the chargeback. Between July 12 and 19 I fought with PayPal over the phone. After that, I let it sit a week, then began pursuing advice and assistance from people with experience, so here I am...

Thanks for the advice. It is greatly appreciated. You guys all sound very nice and that's quite a relief after the "discussion" over on the PP board. IM or direct email is something I'd be interested in if you think it would faciliate the discussion...

xppman · Top Poster

jsevier14
I can just read in between all the BS and derailment that the PP
shills tried to throw in the path of your discussion on the PP shill boards.

Anyway now that you are aware of their existence there is no need to
speak much further about your incident with the company shills.

If I or anyone could have responded to you over there
with the what to do it would have surly been deleted moments after it was posted.

So with said... here is what I think you should do.

a) Your wife's initial response to, "let them come after you", is correct.
There is really NOTHING legally PP can do to you.

b) The time to file any disputes against PP with the proper agencies
is AFTER you have received any correspondence or if they attempt further
collection AFTER YOU send them via certified return receipt mail a
CEASE AND DESIST letter incorporated into a Dispute of the Validity of their Claim.
(which won't be necessary unless they escalate this situation to collections)...

On the other hand it may not hurt to send one out NOW seeing as they
are attempting to contact you now via e mail.

In that letter I would advise them of your rights under the FDCPA and that ANY FURTHER communication on this matter needs to be sent to you via official US mail or other
courier in in hard copy. NO MORE E MAILS.
I would also advise that you wish to no longer do business with them
therefore negating any further obligations by you under their UA.

Naturally I assume you wont be using PP any longer and I also
advise NOT trying to sign up under another name of anyone to avoid detection.

A BIGGIE HERE:

Alert any family members you KNOW NOW that have PP account.

Next they will try and freeze their funds in an attempt
to strong arm them into getting YOU to pay up for their blunder.
mkae sure they get thier money out NOW.

Also go to ppsux.com and go to the "Search" link in the upper right
hand section of the page.
Do a Search for "NCO" FDCPA, EFTA, and RICO.

The answers to most your questions will be there including some drafts
for C&D's as well as Disputing the Validity of their claims.

If we can be of any further assistance do not hesitate to post.

Welcome to CAPP's

xppman · Top Poster

PS:
If you have any credit cards on file with payfraud.
Report them lost or stolen.
Best to be done with payapl because if you have any more transactions
(either buying or selling) they will keep the money.

jsevier14 · Noob

xppman: You have answered all my questions. I plan to proceed as you suggest, and will keep the good people here posted as to the progress of this situation.

I am no longer a PayPal user and have no intention of continuing with the risk having an account with them poses. I would have closed my account but they won't let me with a neg balance.. I have no use for them and it seems there are other options out there... What's your suggestion in that regard?

Thank you very much for your help.

j

xppman · Top Poster

Google Payments, BidPay, Propay, or the merchant account located at ppsux.com.

Good luck and please do keep us updated.
They will try to further intimidate you I have a feeling.

But then again they may just write it off.
After all it was their lax system that took over 35 days to detect
a problem... now wasn't it?