This is a 4 day running email I had with Griff (Dean of Ebay) about the policy changes.

Paypal's in trouble · banned

This is a 4 day running email I had with Griff (Dean of Ebay) about the policy changes.

Paypal's in trouble · banned

Hi Jim, I hear you answer all your emails, so I thought I would test it out...

Hi Tracy,

Yes, I do answer all my emails.

I would like to know what gives ebay the right, to go in and change my 1 neutral feedback, to a negative feedback, even though the buyer told me that she didn't want to hurt my feedback rating?

The change was made to have neutrals calculated in order to present the positive percentage in a manner that is more consistently accurate as "positive percentage." Although neutrals are not negatives, they are most definitely not positives. The vast majority of neutrals left for sellers by buyers are either definite less-than-positives or negatives that were left as neutrals out of a fear of retaliation by sellers.

And what is your response to this scenario of a buyers neutral feedback left?
My friend had his feedback ruined by a ebay newbie that had no clue, what he was doing. He used the feedback form, thinking this is how you ask a question.

THE FEEDBACK LEFT:
"I was wondering if you could tell me if you ship the next day"

Unfortunately, this buyer used the "NEUTRAL" button.
Now this sellers feedback rating has dropped which means buyers looking for their kind of items are PROBABLY going to bypass them for another seller, with 100% feedback. (but that's only because he had his slate wiped clean of the hundreds of negs, that he had before the past 12 months)

There is no evidence at all to support this supposition. No seller's feedback is "ruined" by a neutral. It may bring their percentage of positives down a tenth or a few tenths (depending on that seller's total score) but I have been at eBay since 1996 and I have never seen a seller's business "ruined" by drop in their rating.

Actually Jim, my feedback score is 825, I have 1 neutral and my percentage is 99.4%, that is NOT, a tenth or a few tenths. If a seller, gets a neutral and it says, "Thanks, nice transaction", then the sellers percentage falls, which if I was a buyer, I would gravitate towards the seller, with the higher percentage, therefore, hurting the sellers business. And the sellers, that aren't very established, YES, 1 neutral, CAN ruin them.

If a seller had hundreds of negatives prior to the last 12 months and now has none or a few, that would indicate a seller who has "rehabilitated" their business. They have a 12 month record of providing better customer service. You would deny this chance to another person?

Oh Yeah, that is a way better way to go about ARE YOU NUTS?
Or how about this neutral, which is now a neg:
"Wonderful transaction, seller went out of their way. Very satisfied"
Yeah, that's sure fits this criteria Although neutrals are not negatives, they are most definitely not positives.

What about the sellers who have stopped selling for 12 months, because of their horrible feedback and they just heard of the new change, now they can start scamming again.

One can always find exceptions. By the way, the new interstitial page through which all buyers must go requires them to check off four boxes each with a statement such as "I understand that I am about to leave a negative or neutral and that it cannot be removed," and "I attempted to email the seller before leaving this comment," etc.

Yeah right! Go look on the feedback message board, there is one guy, who started a thread saying "I want to leave a negative for this seller, but look at all the steps I have to go through, that don't even pertain to me (they were the 4 steps, telling you to contact the seller, first) These steps, don't help at all. These people avoiding the steps are the same one, who DON'T READ THE ADS! (If you'd like the link to that thread, I can send it right over)

Are you aware, that with the new 12 month rule, combined with the fact that sellers can no longer leave negative or neutral feedback, that ALL buyers GOOD and BAD will have a 100% feedback rating on May 19, 2009 and we will no longer be able to tell who is a good or bad buyer.

Yes, I am aware that every member (buyers and sellers alike) will only be judged on the last trailing 12 months of feedback. Feedback has never been an effective method for sellers to determine a buyers "worthiness."

Are you serious, then why have it al all?

Good question. We debated simply dumping the entire system and starting anew with a ratings only system. However, it would not have been a good idea. In a transaction, the onus for performance is always on the seller.

I beg to differ. the performance, should also, be on the buyer, researching the seller, to make sure they have good feedback and to READ THE AD, not just the title, check the shipping, so you don't find out, afterwards, that it is more than you'd like to spend or even if they ship to where you are. There are a host of things, the buyer needs to know, to be an informed and educated buyer, besides JUST paying.

This is true of any marketplace, eBay included. A buyer's obligation is to pay, period. A seller's obligations are many: describe the item accurately,

What good does this do, when people don't read the ad?

be available for answering questions, pack the item, ship the item, etc. In order for buyers to feel confident that the seller with whom they are transacting, a rating system is a must.

If that rating system is flawed and unfair, then what's the sense, for it?

Here's why:

1. Since the vast majority of buyers tend to bid in auction format listings in the last moments, it was impossible for a seller to use those bidders' feedback to determine a buyer's intention to pay because there was no time for a seller to make the determination. The same is true for Fixed Price listings.
2. In addition, since over 90% of all retaliatory negatives were left by sellers for buyers...

Oh, you mean one like this. Buyer buys the item because it's the cheapest one he sees, although he fails to look at the shipping or even read the ad, for that matter. He gets an invoice saying the shipping is $9 and gets extremely upset, because all the other sellers' shipping was under $5. He also failed to read that this buyer ships on Monday and Friday and it is NOW, Tuesday, so his item will not be shipping for another 3 days, plus it has to go through the weekend, which means is will be at LEAST a week until he will see his item. He decides "I will get them back" and leave them a negative, complaining about the shipping. This seller did NOTHING wrong and is it is NOT the sellers job, to teach the buyer, HOW TO BUY. Ebay needs to do a better job in teaching these new buyers on how to be an "informed" buyer. IT IS ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS!

CONTINUED...

-- Edited by Paypal's in trouble at 17:05, 2008-07-22

-- Edited by Paypal's in trouble at 17:10, 2008-07-22

-- Edited by Paypal's in trouble at 17:41, 2008-07-22

Paypal's in trouble · banned

Joy, I said 90%. That leaves about 10% of which the above is a probable example.

Look on the feedback board, it is happening to hundreds daily and it's way beyond 10%.

I don't know all the details of this particular transaction (did the seller provide a shipping cost in the listing? Why is it $4 more than other sellers?

Who really cares what someone charges for shipping? I can list something and charge $100 in shipping, but you know what, the buyer can walk away. No one is forcing them to bid on this item! I've bought several things, where the shipping was overpriced, but the product price was cheaper and even though I paid MORE for shipping, my total, was less than any of the other ones, with cheaper shipping. So, complaining about a shipping price, is just a show, that the buyer, DIDN'T read the ad, first!

I said before, some buyers may not read everything or understand everything. If they then go on to leave a neutral or negative, that does not make them "Bad."

You've got to be kidding me. Someone who may not read everything or understand everything, are NOT bad buyers? That is almost laughable! Hey Jim, did you happen to know that there is this button, on the ad page, where you can ACTUALLY email the seller, to ask them questions, IF YOU DON'T WANT TO READ THE AD or IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND EVERYTHING? But, they refuse to use it. 90% of all problems could be avoided, if buyers just did this.

You may feel different. I can tell you this: If the buyer paid for the item and then left me a neutral or negative (I do sell on the site btw and I don't get breaks for being an employee) I would contact them, ask them if there was anything I could do to make them happy and ask them to feel free to come back and buy from me.

Oh ok, I see, then there is YOUR problem. You mind is twisted! Thats has got to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard!

Why? Because he may not be the smartest person in the world and he may not be concerned with my ratings

If he WAS a good buyer, he WOULD care about your ratings. I've had problems, with many sellers over the past 6 years, but I have NEVER left a negative, because I care.

but it is not a buyer's responsibility to be intelligent or to care about my ratings! I know the value of a paying customer and negative or neutral or not, I would not turn them away.

Until you get too many of them and your score drops and then no one is gonna look at your listings anyway, with such a low rating.

Then there are sellers who view these customers as "Bad" and want eBay to banish them.

No, we want ebay to train them, on how to buy.

Again, I have to be honest, sellers who hold on to this belief are not going to fare well at eBay.

utilizing a buyer's negative feedback comments was also a completely inaccurate way (when it was possible, see point #1) to guage hat buyer's true "worthiness."

I guess thats why my buying feedback is so BAD, because I researched, my sellers first and went through their comments and if I saw anything bad, I stayed away, looks like it worked for me!

Buyers have one obligation and only one obligation: to pay for the item. The UPI process allows sellers to hold non paying buyers accountable.

Oh yeah, right. How do you figure. You file the NPI, they get mad and give you a negative. Ebay takes care of them, deletes their account and they are back in 10 minutes, with a new one. REAL SMART JIM, REAL SMART!

Actually, very smart. Here's why: Sellers should be blocking any UPI buyers. If a blocked buyer bids on a seller's items with a new account, that buyer's new account will be suspended and any feedback left will be removed. If a buyer has been suspended for chronic UPIs and then registers a new account, that account, when reported to us or detected by the system, You don't look for these people, so how are they going to be detected?

will be suspended and any negative feedback left will be removed. Before the changes, this was not the case. Again, buyers who are truly bad will be suspended and any feedback they left for sellers will be permanently removed?

Yeah, AFTER 3 strikes, so the sellers who got the first 2 have to have their ratings messed up, until he messes up again? That's real fair, Jim

Are you aware, that someone can bid on your item, ignore you, not pay and then when the buyer files a non paying bidder report (only to get his listing fees back), that the buyer can now give them a neutral or negative, even though no transaction occured. How is this fair?

That is not true. Per the announced changes, when a seller submits a UPI complaint for a buyer, and that buyer does not respond with a substantive response, negative feedback left by that buyer for that seller will be removed and, if the buyer has not yet left feedback, they will be blocked from doing so.

BUT, then can respond and say "I don't want it anymore" and THEN they get to leave their little NEG, HOW QUAINT!

No, that is not true. I said a substantive response. "I don't want it anymore." is not an acceptable response.

How about "Doesn't fit", is that substanitive? A seller on the board, has this in here feedback and ebay will NOT remove it. The buyer didn't read the ad and that is the buyers fault!

How about the fact that all the BAD buyers and BAD sellers, have now had their slates, wiped clean, because of the new 12 month policy.

The issue here is the definition of a "bad buyer."

A bad buyer is a buyer that doesn't pay (or worse, attempts to defraud or extort a seller or who clearly abuses the feedback system). We have in place new policies, easier reporting channels and stricter enforcement for this purpose. Buyers who abuse the feedback system will be suspended and the feedback they left will be permanently erased. We had a case earlier this week where a buyer started leaving negatives for every seller from whom they had purchased. Once reported to us, that buyer was suspended and all the negatives removed. In addition, we will suspend any buyer who uses the threat of negative feedback to extort either items, money or terms of service not provided by the seller in their listing description.

NOT TRUE JIM, there are thousands of people on the feedback boards complaining that the buyers are gone, but the feedback remains, even after months.

Absolutely true Joy. The changes went into place on May 19th. Any violation that happens after that date is taken care of immediately. We have announced that due the scope of the project, the negative feedback left by buyers who were suspended prior to the will be removed in batches over the next several weeks.

However, a buyer who is difficult or hard-to-please or who may have not read the seller's terms of service carefully, or who leaves a negative or neutral is not a "bad buyer."

Are you kidding me, one who "may have not read the seller's terms of service carefully" is not a BAD buyer, that is laughable. You crack me up Jim.

Sorry you disagree. Of course, you are free to define a bad buyer any way you see fit. However, I am trying to tell you that on eBay, If you view a buyer who may have made an error (l.e. Not read the entire list of TOS) to be "Bad", you are not going to fare well.

Of course we're not going to fare well, when you say it's OK, for a buyer to NOT read the ad, buy the wrong size, color or whatever and then leave a neut, because they didn't read, who will fare well, with these kind of buyers?

A bad seller is one that does not deliver the goods, delivers goods that are not as described or who repeatedly provides a less than satisfactory buying experience or customer service for their buyers. Buyers can report these bad sellers to us via the same reporting channels that sellers have to report bad buyers.

CONTINUED...

-- Edited by Paypal's in trouble at 17:06, 2008-07-22

-- Edited by Paypal's in trouble at 17:15, 2008-07-22

-- Edited by Paypal's in trouble at 17:46, 2008-07-22

Paypal's in trouble · banned

The reason for the 12 month trailing is to give all good sellers who may have either started out on a bad foot, had a short period of failing to deliver good service, etc a fair chance at rehabilitation. I am confused as to how any seller could actually argue against such a feature since it benefits all good sellers.

UMMM, try checking out the feedback message board on ebay, the only ones it is benefiting are the BAD buyers and BAD sellers, who had their slates wiped clean.

Again, there will be exceptions to every case. If a seller chooses to focus on the minority exceptions, so be it. However, if you would rather that all your current and future negatives and neutrals remain forever against your percentage, I can forward your request to the appropriate team for their consideration.

Please forward that Jim, because my record is impecable and that change, did NOT remove ANYTHING bad, from my account. I'm sure you're thinking that I am some trailer trash seller, that has no clue, what I am talking about, but my feedback, speaks for itself.

(really bad sellers have always been permanently suspended and the 12 month feature won't change that or their exposure to bad ratings or reports that will get them suspended).

I don't know how on earth you can say this is a good change.

Because it is providing a safer, more accurate marketplace for buyers who before the changes were abandoning eBay (For all the reasons I outlined in my February Chatter post: http://www.ebaychatter.com/the_chatter/2008/02/feedback-change.html )

ABANDONING EBAY, I think you have it wrong. Go here and you will SEE, who is abandoning ebay: http://forums.ebay.com/db2/forum.jspa?forumID=113 You have a REVOLT going on there and it is only going to get worse as more people log on to find there percentages took a nose dive.

Our own data do not support this assessment.

Oh, you must be talking about how the listings haven't decreased, right? Get your head out of the sand Jim, we know all about the ebay "PADDING", where you guys are listing millions of items, from buy.com and other big listers, to throw off the numbers. You can't hide behind that one, Jim. Have you see the videos yet, popping up all over youtube. We got your number Jim, so don't try and fool us! Padding video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nf14CEHv__c

Ebays listings are down a million, since yesterday, see here:

http://www.powersellersunite.com/auctionsitewatch.php
and thats even with the many sellers, like these: http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=buy&ftab=AllFeedback&myworld=true

who are adding a half a million listings, but giving HORRIBLE service, Yeah, Jim...that's really the sellers that we want here. (Is this Buy.com, throwing off the numbers, to make the boycotters, think all is FINE?)

I did a little test. This weekend, I went to a party, say about 100 people or so. I started the topic on ebay and only a FEW had heard of the changes. Within 5 hours, I found about 30 people and out of them 3 had known of the change. Someone had a laptop and people left and right, were checking their accounts. 75% of them dropped, because of one neutral rating and nearly all of them, were unwarranted! NOW, those 30 poeple are going to at LEAST tell 1 person, which makes 60, which in turn, gets the word out. You guys have really made a big mistake here and it is all gonna come crashing down.

Again, not according to our numbers.

YES, ACCORDING TO THE NUMBERS, THE TRUTHFUL ONES, LISTINGS ARE DOWN, SO IS THE STOCK! If you haven't seen, look here: http://finance.google.com/finance?client=ob&q=NASDAQ:EBAY

I never said these changes would be easy for all sellers. Over the years, through the old feedback system, we (eBay) have enabled what is essentially, a unhealthy approach to ratings and buyers and it will take time for all sellers to adjust. However, I talk to many sellers every day (hundreds a year) and those sellers who actually adjusted their business practices shortly after the announcement in January have seen an improvement in their business and their ratings. For those who hold on to the old system or the belief that the old system will somehow return, the changes will prove to be more difficult to adapt.

Can you honestly tell me you don't have one friend, that sells on ebay, that is telling you that this is all a load of crap?

Yes I can honestly tell you this is true. I hear from many sellers every week. You can choose to disbelieve me. That is your right.

Remeber Jim, the big man up there is watching you.

Why don't you mosey yourself on over to the ebay feedback message forum and see the revolt going on, maybe you wouldn't be so "chipper" on the radio.

Make no mistake, I am well aware of all discussions on our forums. I read most of them at least once every two days or so. I am not surprised by some of the discussions

Actually ALL the discussions are talking about how bad it is, Not some. Some or even FEW can be used to describe the ones that are FOR it and you can see that they are the ones that had their slates wiped clean. Don't believe me, just ask and I will send over all their account names, for you to check.

(I actually predicted them) and I am not surprised at the comments about myself. I knew full well when I decided to speak out in February and since that some sellers would excoriate me for my words. So be it. My goal is not to please everyone (an impossibility).

So, in turn to stand on the side of the bad buyer and bad seller, because it's a lot easier to please a small minority, then the majority. Makes NO sense!

My goal is to provide the facts and assistance to any seller who asks for it.

Very clever Joy. But don't let the tenor of the forums drive your assumptions. Not all sellers excoriate me and I do please a fair number of people every day. Yes, I get email from angry (scared, fearful) sellers but I also receive email (in growing numbers) from sellers who, though still apprehensive are seeing their own businesses on eBay improve.

Jim, I'd like you to stand behind that statement. To show, that the majority are for the change, why don't you dedicate a WHOLE show to questions and don't screen them on their questions and we'll see, how many are FOR it!

My offer stands. If you need help with your selling on eBay or with adjusting to the changes, I am here for you.

Oh, and for the record, Jim....my name isn't Joy. You must be getting a little stressed out/frazzeled and starting to mix things up!
C'mon Jim...if you can't beat em', join em!

After a day or two, I emailed him asking why he didn't respond to the RED questions.

Whatsa matta there, JIMBO? Getting a little TOO busy with the COMPLAINTS, that you can't keep up with the emails? Or perhaps your on the feedback board, trying to find all the padding links to have them removed. Why did they remove my padding thread? The truth hurts, doesn't it, Jim?

Anyways, I await your reply
Thanks again Jim, Griff or whatever they call ya.

Thanks for asking. Actually, I am all caught up on email.

I have no idea why the Live World moderators removed your thread (I don't know what a "padding thread" is) but I would suspect these threads violated board policy.

Tracy, I haven't responded to your last email because it is quite clear that my previous responses clearly have not helped you understand why we implemented the changes nor have they helped assuage or reduce your extreme anger at eBay (and apparently, me), It is certainly not my goal to raise anyone's ire and it distresses me to see my responses have only raised yours.

However, as I offered before, if you have specific questions about eBay, eBay policy, the new feedback system or if you need assistance with your selling, raising your ratings, etc, I am always here to help.

Ok, then..I have one other question, that I didn't ask before...

Why would ebay bring BUY.COM on board and let them give soooo many buyers a negative experience? How is that helping any? It might be padding the listings, but it is definatley upsetting LOADS of people.
This is their account
http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=buy&ftab=AllFeedback&myworld=true

And their feedback here, HORRIBLE:
http://toolhaus.org/cgi-bin/negs?User=buy&ref=home

I don't see how you think this could be a good seller and someone that will help ebay.

Hello Tracey,

Buy's feedback score is 99.0% and their DSRs are 4.9, 4.8,4.8,4.8

This is actually a very good feedback and rating profile.

regards,

Griff

Jim Griffith
Dean of Education

This is what was in the padding thread, just so you can take a look.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nf14CEHv__c&feature=related

I guess you WOULDN'T have and answer for it. And if you don't like to click on links, then just go to youtube and type in ebay padding...
Thanks again, Jim.

Thanks Tracey. I will check it out when I am back from Dallas. (I'm visiting a group of sellers - the eBaybes and Emales eBay Group - they invited me to their monthly meeting)

Love to be a fly on the wall, there!

Well,

You could join the group and ask them how it went. Or you can wait to read my blog post about the event at the Chatter. It's a pretty big group and I am looking forward to meeting with them (a few are sellers I have known for nearly 12 years).

This email, was from a while later, when I was listening to one of his shows, on the air.

Geez, c'mon, get to the questions.
No one wants to hear about your wardrobe for Ebay Live or Lee having to get her nails and toes done.

Guess you figured out that Ebay Live, wasn't all you thought it would be...LOL

Actually, the event (nearly over) was a fantastic success. Sorry you weren,t here.

Sure looks fantastic, to me (don't forget to look at the readers comments):

http://blog.auctionbytes.com/cgi-bin/blog/blog.pl?/comments/2008/6/1213981148.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHY0r3Sn9rc

http://youtube.com/watch?v=zBX4vRjPHXM

http://blog.auctionbytes.com/cgi-bin/blog/blog.pl?/pl/2008/6/1213907034.html

http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/article/28823/eBay-Live%3A-No-Walk-in-the-Park-for-CEO-Donahoe

Looks like Lee (Show co-host) knows more about how shipping should, doesn't make a difference. Who cares what anyone charges, if it's too high for you , hit
the back button. No one is forcing yopu to buy. It's the buyers, who don't
read the ads and then have buyers remorse afterwards, because they didn't
look at the shipping.

But, like lee says...I bought and item for $3 and the shipping was around
$20, but in the end, I saved $30 on the item. So, stop talking about people
sharging too much for shipping, it's a moot point!

THE END

-- Edited by Paypal's in trouble at 17:22, 2008-07-22

budnonymous · Top Poster

These people don't care about any of that. They care about their money, and that is it. Go watch that Griff on feedback vid. Listen/see to how short and rude he is.

They do NOT care about you or I or the next person. Not one tiny bit
They care about money and that is all.

I could go on & on of course like so many do, but why?

It is more fulfilling to expose them for what they are and try to persuade folks to leave.

You seem like a person with feelings and one who cares about the well-being of your fellows (as well as yourself.)

Please consider doing likewise.

There is life after eb

Ever heard of a little thing called
"the rest of the internet"?